Lately, there's been a surge of questions on how the Insanity mechanics works in CoC.
Here's a flowchart by Theodor Paues who posted it in the Call of Cthulhu Role-Playing Game & Players group on Facebook (click on chart to expand):
Q: Is it true during a Bout of Madness, the PC is immune to further SAN loss?
A: Yes, but if the PC snaps out of the Bout of Madness while still in the presence of a Mythos creature or other Insanity invoking sights, they are subject to SAN loss at that moment. See p.164 Keeper Rulebook, sidebar: "A Note about Delusions and Sanity Point Loss."
Q: What about Underlying Insanity? How long does it last?
A: It lasts for 1d10 hours. If there is a single point loss during this time period, another Bout of Madness will occur. I wouldn't reroll for another random Bout of Madness, but accentuate what had happened before. See p.157-158 Keeper Rulebook, Insanity Phase 2: Underlying Insanity.
Q: How long is 1d10 rounds for a Bout of Madness, if not in combat?
A: The GM should just gestimate the time. Play out the Bout of Madness and let the PC snap out of it at the appropriate dramatic moment. Assume a combat round is 2-5 seconds or so.
Q: Should I roll a random Mania or Phobia or choose?
A: I like to roll on the chart for inspiration, but if the rolled entry doesn't make any thematic sense, then I'd just pick one that makes more sense. I have also asked the Player as to what type of Mania or Phobia they want. If appropriate, I use their suggestion or sometimes tweak it a little to make it more interesting.
Q: What use is Psychoanalysis?
A: In the short term, enable an insane PC to temporarily ignore a phobia or mania. See p.162 Keeper Rulebook. Also help an insane PC see through a delusion. See p.163 Keeper Rulebook. For long term treatment of a PC that's Insane or suffering from a Mania or Phobia. See p.72 Keeper Rulebook.
I also allow (house rule) Psychoanalysis to snap a PC out of a Bout of Madness early, if the psychoanalyst (or Alienist in 1920s speak) succeeds in the skill roll. This doesn't recover any SAN points, but it's basically shock therapy seen in movies where the patient is slapped or shaken and told to snap out of it. This is useful during combat when you discover that most of your fellow investigators are either cowering in a corner or frozen with fear and you desperately need help.
Q: Is there a chart for Delusions?
A: No, just make something up that's thematic. Also keep in mind that you can use the Delusions to foreshadow an Insane Insight in the future. See p.169 Keeper Rulebook, "Insane Insight."
Q: Can a PC be hardened to seeing horrible things?
A: Yes. See p.169 Keeper Rulebook, "Getting Used to the Awfulness." You max out on SAN loss, but that is on a creature by creature basis and over time, this hardening softens by 1 pt each development phase. In Pulp Cthulhu, one Pulp Talent is Hardened where you are immune to SAN loss for violence against humans.
So, who keeps track of this hardening? I make the Players keep track. If they don't I'll assume they've fully recovered from the awfulness and can be affected again. Generally, the PCs won't be exposed to the same Mythos creature between random scenarios unless it's a campaign. If it's a campaign, then at some point they'll become immune to seeing a reoccurring Mythos creature, probably by the end of the 1st or 2nd session.
Q: Top of p.155 Keeper Rulebook: "When encountering one ghoul, the Sanity point loss is 0/1d6. It is the same when encountering multiple ghouls; the sanity effect is for the encounter rather than each ghoul."
Q: Top of p.155 Keeper Rulebook: "When encountering one ghoul, the Sanity point loss is 0/1d6. It is the same when encountering multiple ghouls; the sanity effect is for the encounter rather than each ghoul."
How long does 'an encounter' last?
Let's say there are some catacombs the investigators are going through. At opening to the catacombs is a ghoul. Half way through there are 2 more ghouls. And at the exit there is a last ghoul.
One investigator can only lose a maximum of 6 points from the 'encounter' with the ghoul, but is the above 1 or 3 'encounters'?
A: Depends on the situation. When they first encountered a ghoul for the very first time: OMG, it's something out of this world! (SAN check). When they see a group of 2: OMG, it's more common than you thought! (San check). 3rd ghoul at the end: Ok, another ghoul (no SAN check), unless they're running for their lives and this last ghoul can kill them. Oh, F*ck, a ghoul! (SAN check).
Part of it is the circumstances. For a first encounter, of course, you always have SAN check due to seeing something out of this world. If a next encounter reveals something they haven't seen before whether there's a gaggle of the creatures or whether they're eating human flesh, that would change the circumstances enough to force another SAN check.
It's also about pacing, at some point, making the die rolls will get tiresome and you can do a gut check as to whether the PCs have maxed out their 6 SAN loss already. It's ok to be a bit sloppy here, maybe one PC only lost 5 pts, but it's not worth sweating over that last point if it slows down the pacing of the game for the whole table. Each time you do a SAN check, it does kill the pacing of your game a little, unless it's a massive loss where you know someone will go insane.
Q (GN): In Getting Used to the Awfulness, how do you do the die rolls? For instance, seeing a monster is 1/1d6 SAN loss. When you see it again, is it 1/1d5 SAN loss?
A: No, you continue to use 1/1d6 SAN loss, but if the loss happens to hit the max, reduce the amount lost. For instance, max loss is 6 in your example, so if a PC lost 4 pts, then when PC sees the same monster again, if you roll more than 2 pts, just lower the additional loss to 2 pts for a max total loss of 6 pts. Then any future sightings during the scenario will incur no SAN loss as you've gotten used to the awfulness.
Q: Even though you're reading a Mythos Tome over long periods of time, weeks or months, does it still cause Insanity?
Q: Even though you're reading a Mythos Tome over long periods of time, weeks or months, does it still cause Insanity?
A: Yes. See p.174 Keeper Rulebook, breakout box example. That is part of the Mythos and game. Reading and understanding books written my mad monks will drive you insane when you finally understand that the mad ramblings are really telling you the actual truth about the world around you.
But remember to use p.159 Keeper Rulebook, Table VIII: Bouts of Madness - Summary instead.
Q: When reading a Mythos Tome, which order do you apply Mythos gain and SAN loss?
A: The SAN loss and Mythos gain are applied simultaneously. For example, if the PC had a 68 SAN and Max SAN 70 before reading the book. Book has Mythos gain +5% and SAN Loss 2d6. Max SAN drops to 65 after the +5% Mythos gain. Assume SAN Loss was 2 pts (lucky fellow), but 68 - 2 = 66 SAN, but that is higher than his new Max SAN, so the PC's SAN is lowered to 65 instead.
Q: p.419 Keeper Rulebook on "Initial Reading," it says, "Roll for Sanity loss," does that mean the PC gets a SAN save to see if they lose any SAN when reading a Mythos Tome?
A: No. That is bad phrasing. The SAN loss for reading any Mythos Tome is automatic, there is no avoiding it. When it says roll for SAN loss, they mean roll the amount of SAN lost, not a SAN save. It should have stated, "Apply Sanity point loss" instead. See p.174 Keeper Rulebook, breakout box example.
Q: Do you lose SAN for skimming and careful reading of a Mythos Tome?
A: Yes, you lose SAN every time you read a Mythos Tome, whether Initial or Full. You may also read a Mythos Tome multiple times. Each time you do a full reading, the reading time doubles. See p.419 Keeper Rulebook.
Q: What does it mean when I see "San Loss: 1/1D8" or "1/1D8 Sanity points?"
A: San Loss: Success/Failure. The number to the left of the slash is the amount of SAN loss if the SAN Roll succeeds. The number to the right of the slash is the amount of SAN loss if the SAN Roll fails. See p.154 Keeper Rulebook, Sanity Points and SAN Rolls.
Q: When do you get a Phobia or Mania?
A: See p.157 Keeper Rulebook, Table VII, Bouts of Madness. 9: Phobia; 10 Mania. I only give a Phobia or Mania if a 9 or 10 is rolled on the Bouts of Madness. The Phobia / Mania will be based on the current scene. If Phobia, the PC will react in fear, Mania some sort of fascination. I leave it up to the Player to decide and act out in an appropriate manner. See p.159 Keeper Rulebook on Phobic and Manic Responses While Insane.
Q: I'm getting Involuntary Action, Bouts of Madness, and Temporary Insanity mixed up. What's what?
Q: I'm getting Involuntary Action, Bouts of Madness, and Temporary Insanity mixed up. What's what?
A: If a PC loses 1+ SAN, they automatically have an Involuntary Action. See p.154 Keeper Rulebook, 2nd column: Jump in fright, Cry out in terror, Involuntary movement, Involuntary combat action, Freeze.
If they lose 20% SAN in one day (20% tally starts after a night of rest, e.g. 50 SAN in the morning, so 20% is 10 pts total), then they have Indefinite Insanity. They have an Involuntary Action, followed by a Bout of Madness, and then Underlying Insanity which lasts until the end of the scenario or campaign chapter (p.158 Keeper Rulebook, Insanity Phase 2: Underlying Insanity) or until they get treatment (p.164 Keeper Rulebook, Recovery from Indefinite Insanity).
If they lose 20% SAN in one day (20% tally starts after a night of rest, e.g. 50 SAN in the morning, so 20% is 10 pts total), then they have Indefinite Insanity. They have an Involuntary Action, followed by a Bout of Madness, and then Underlying Insanity which lasts until the end of the scenario or campaign chapter (p.158 Keeper Rulebook, Insanity Phase 2: Underlying Insanity) or until they get treatment (p.164 Keeper Rulebook, Recovery from Indefinite Insanity).
If they lose 5+ SAN, roll their INT or lower, then they have Temporary Insanity. They have an Involuntary Action, a Bout of Madness, and Underlying Insanity which lasts 1d10 hours. During the 1d10 hours of Underlying Insanity, any loss of SAN would cause another Bout of Madness.
If the PC is with other investigators, the Bout of Madness lasts 1d10 rounds and Table VII: Bouts of Madness - Real Time is used. See p.157 Keeper Rulebook. Phobias and Manias are permanent. During a Bout of Madness, another PC may try to temporarily snap the affected PC out of it by using Psychoanalysis.
If the PC is alone, the Bout of Madness lasts 1d10 hours and Table VIII: Bouts of Madness - Summary is used. See p.159 Keeper Rulebook. I meld the Underlying Insanity with the Bout of Madness, so the combined duration is just 1d10 hours since there is not another PC to snap the PC out of the Bout of Madness.
Q: How do you read / use roll20.net's SAN in the character sheet?
Q: How do you read / use roll20.net's SAN in the character sheet?
A: This is for the following version which I prefer (over the "CoC 7th Edition by Roll20"):
Q: As a GM, should I describe the horribleness and then ask for a SAN check or vice versa?
Q (GVS): I'm a new Keeper and so far I've been pretty unhappy with the way I run SAN. It looks like a fairly hard mechanic to use and make exciting.
Q (EW): I have players that "game" the system -- for example -- not looking at horrors, not reading mythos tomes, plugging their ears, etc. in efforts to preserve their Sanity.
Q (RH): When measuring 1/5th for sanity loss, do you round up or down? For example: How much sanity can someone with 47 SAN lose before indefinite insanity?
Q (AE): To overcome an Indefinite Insanity you need psychiatric help. But if an investigator is going to tell a doctor about mythos encounters they will be told it was all in their imagination. So to get cured they are going to need to believe it never happened. So what happens when they gave their next mythos encounter? This mechanic doesn’t seem sensible to me. What do others think, how have you handled Indefinite Insanity treatments in your games?
"Current SAN" and "Starting SAN for today" are editable. "Start SAN -20%" and "Max SAN" are auto calculated. Enter your current SAN in the "Current SAN" box, default is starting POW, update this as you lose SAN. At the start of a scenario enter your current SAN in the "Starting SAN for today" box. If your SAN drops to "Start SAN -20%" (or 64 in this example), you automatically experience Temp Insanity. "Max SAN" is 99 - Cthulhu Mythos.
Q: As a GM, should I describe the horribleness and then ask for a SAN check or vice versa?
A: TL;DR: Describe first, then ask for the SAN check afterwards.
Here's my long answer in a separate blog post.
Q (CB): Looking at examples (breakout boxes) in the Keeper Rulebook p.158, Harvey's Bout of Madness is Violence. Why does he on p.159 have paranoia? I'm confused.
Q (CB): Looking at examples (breakout boxes) in the Keeper Rulebook p.158, Harvey's Bout of Madness is Violence. Why does he on p.159 have paranoia? I'm confused.
A: Example on p.159 is an example of Insanity Phase 2: Underlying Insanity (p.158). The Player is just roleplaying the underlying insanity caused by the fear that there are hidden devices triggered by his Bout of Madness. This "paranoia" will last 1d10 hours.
Q (GVS): I'm a new Keeper and so far I've been pretty unhappy with the way I run SAN. It looks like a fairly hard mechanic to use and make exciting.
It feels like you're playing D&D and your PC is loosing HP just going through doors because they're booby-trapped, without opportunity to fight back. Actually, it feels even like I'm mean to my player: "You get in the room, there's a butchered and stinky corpse there, I hate you, loose SAN, you should not have opened that door you dumb moron."
I just feel terrible that "behind this door is a trap SAN roll, and my players can't possibly know about it, and even if they could know, there's nothing they could do about it. They must open the door to move forward, and that'll screw them".
A (MH): CoC is a horror game. There is the tension between: "I don't want to, but I have to." I don't want to see or find out, but I have to, to solve the mystery, to save my friends, my family, the world (sometimes). The price is SAN loss. You have to push up this tension between the two in the game. In your example, yeah, there's some horribly butchered corpse that's dripping blood. Now ask the Players to roll Spot Hidden. OMG, now some of the PCs see a clue, a bloody slip of paper poking between the teeth of one of the corpses. You have to now climb over a pile of bodies and pry it out of the mouth. Oh, NO, no, no, nooooo. I don't want to, but someone has to!
Comment (TS): You have to pay to play.
(MH): The cost of investigating is SAN and / or HP loss. As you investigate more and get deeper into the mystery, it should cost more and more. What's the breaking point between "I don't want to, but I have to?" When does the PC decide "I don't want to?" As a GM, you have to read the table. At some point, a few PCs would "turtle" and stay behind. Others will enter alone. You want to be on the balance point of the razor's edge. If they all "turtle" then you're too heavy on the "I don't want to," then you'll need to either let them gather their courage, set a ticking clock, or chase them out of their hiding place. Subtly or forcefully push them to "I have to."
Q (GVS): It's really the moment I ask for a SAN roll that feels arbitrary to me. I'm kinda okay with the Bout of Madness reactions and how to make them interesting, but the "behind the door was something horrible, bad luck to you, roll SAN." I feel like the player should be able to do something in between the scare and the SAN roll, either to mitigate the damage, avoid the roll, or prepare to the loss. Giving more agency to the player with regards to when a SAN roll should happen and / or what they do.
Q (GVS): It's really the moment I ask for a SAN roll that feels arbitrary to me. I'm kinda okay with the Bout of Madness reactions and how to make them interesting, but the "behind the door was something horrible, bad luck to you, roll SAN." I feel like the player should be able to do something in between the scare and the SAN roll, either to mitigate the damage, avoid the roll, or prepare to the loss. Giving more agency to the player with regards to when a SAN roll should happen and / or what they do.
A (MH): I always give hints such as a bad smell or fluids leaking under the door (if it's obvious, otherwise, it's a Spot Hidden). Then it's up to the individual PC as to whether they enter the room or open the door. Others may decide to just hang back and not look.
When I play and encounter a dead body (and take some SAN loss), I generally throw a sheet or something over the dead body to mitigate SAN loss for the other PCs.
Most SAN loss has a 0/1d4 SAN loss for non-supernatural horror, so if they make their SAN check, they lose nothing. So, when they take 0 SAN loss, they were able to steel themselves, and avoid taking any SAN loss.
Q (EW): I have players that "game" the system -- for example -- not looking at horrors, not reading mythos tomes, plugging their ears, etc. in efforts to preserve their Sanity.
It becomes comical and totally ruins the horror mood!
What are some good Keeper tips to circumvent this?
A (MH): Not looking doesn't work unless it's just a normal blood splattered crime scene. By not looking, you can't get the clues. If it's a creature, then there are other senses (sounds, odors, noise, dripping mucus) that come into play and also an otherness that grips their mind, so not looking will still incur a SAN loss, but now the creature can just come up to them and have a free attack that can't miss.
It won't become comical, it'll become a horrible TPK.
Not reading mythos tomes is fine. But sometimes a solution to killing the creature or the creature's nature is explained in the mythos tome. Or there's a spell in the tome that affects the creature. Good luck with that.
It won't become comical, it'll become a horrible TPK.
Q (RH): When measuring 1/5th for sanity loss, do you round up or down? For example: How much sanity can someone with 47 SAN lose before indefinite insanity?
A (MH): I round up to 10 SAN loss. The pathological case of 4 SAN would be 1 if you round up, 0 if you round down. Also this is in the favor of the PC. I give more breaks to the PC, so when things go bad, I can say I gave them all the breaks.
If you calculate it precisely, then 20% of 47 is 9.4. You can only lose SAN in whole numbers, so the answer would be 10 SAN loss. 9 loss won't hit the threshold. 10 crosses it.
Some people say use the Quick Reference Chart for Half and Fifth Values on p. 420 Keeper Rulebook. You will see that the 1/5 value for 4 SAN or less is 0. This is the pathological case I mentioned above.
Some people say CoC always rounds down, so the answer is 9 SAN loss. But if you revise the question to: At what current SAN do you get an Indefinite Insanity? Then rounding down means 37 SAN for that day's Indefinite Insanity. 10 SAN loss.
Q (AE): To overcome an Indefinite Insanity you need psychiatric help. But if an investigator is going to tell a doctor about mythos encounters they will be told it was all in their imagination. So to get cured they are going to need to believe it never happened. So what happens when they gave their next mythos encounter? This mechanic doesn’t seem sensible to me. What do others think, how have you handled Indefinite Insanity treatments in your games?
A (JS): Therapists won't tell them it's all in their imagination, they will just give them tools to deal with the trauma they experienced making them stronger out the other side of treatment which plays into the getting used to the horror mechanic.
A (MH): Indefinite Insanity takes months of care before they're cured (see p.164 Keeper Rulebook, Recovery from Indefinite Insanity). And they must be in a safe place, so that PC is definitely out of commission. Either that PC should continue investigating while Indefinitely Insane or the Player should use a backup / replacement character. In my games, the Players have just continued investigating while insane. Only in a long campaign has a Player decided to put a PC in the hospital (and this was from a physical injury) and used a replacement character.
Q (TS): Does casting a spell that has a sanity cost of 1D6 cause temporary insanity on a roll of 5+? Also, does losing enough sanity through spell casting cause indefinite insanity?
A (MH): Yes and Yes. Mythos spells require understanding of Cthulhu Mythos Magic, so casting those spells pushes you to complete understanding. Some spells do not have a SAN cost. Some are considered Folk Magic, See p.13 the Grand Grimoire of Cthulhu Mythos Magic.
A (ENR): That's the cost of magic... and also why most villainous cultists are insane (0 Sanity).
Q (SF): What happens if you lose both 5 SAN and 20% of the day's starting SAN at the same time?
A (MH): Just apply the Indefinite Insanity from the 20% SAN loss. Indefinite Insanity is automatic whereas the Temporary Insanity requires a test. Just hand out the harsher automatic effect.
Q (GB): Keeper Rulebook p.154. Failing a SAN roll always causes an Investigator to lose self-control and the Keeper should choose an involuntary action for the investigator.
Every time a PC loses 1 SAN, how do you stop this from becoming a farce? Especially if every time the game comes to any kind of climax and most of the group ends up screaming and running away, dropping their weapon, or freezing. How do you stop this from killing the momentum and not turning this into comedy horror?
A (MH): Those involuntary actions only last for a short moment. And mechanically there's generally no effect. It's more for flavor. Most of those actions do NOT take up the PC's full action. They can still act normally. I generally use those sparingly or not at all. Most PCs would just freeze, whimper, exhale, or drop something. But they would still get their full action.
When looking at a grisly crime scene or odd event, I would use the involuntary action as an ice breaker. Where a PC would suddenly gasp or drop something, making a loud noise and making everyone jump a bit. This matches a lot of horror movies where there's a jump scare.
But in a major encounter, such as in the final big boss monster, I would dispense with the involuntary action. I would only look for the 5 SAN loss and 20% SAN loss effects.
Q (WS): A character just experienced a huge sanity loss (53 out of 57). I'm looking for consequences ideas, what might happen to him, without skipping too much in-game time. Any ideas?
Q (WS): A character just experienced a huge sanity loss (53 out of 57). I'm looking for consequences ideas, what might happen to him, without skipping too much in-game time. Any ideas?
A (MH): Sounds like he saw a Mythos deity. Time to start worshiping what he saw. He’s 4 pts short of being a cultist. 😊
WS: He opened the wrong door and said hi to Azathoth.
MH: He may also get a mania for Astronomy. (I actually know which scenario that is. The doorway opens up to outer space and you see Azathoth and his court in all its glory.)
Other people suggested that the PC just curl up into a ball and take a long time out or a long visit to the asylum for treatment. The problem with that is the PC does skip a lot of in-game time. When this happens, the Player should continue with an alternate PC. (In this scenario, they're pretty much near the end, so pulling in an alternate PC at this point isn't that organic and is odd story-wise.)
By pushing the PC more towards being a cultist, the PC can still act and it'll give the PC motivation to continue investigating with a desire to get to 0 SAN. Lots of cool role playing and story for the game. And you might get to see the full story arc for this PC without a long, time gap. (Hey, only 4 more pts of SAN loss. 😊)
Q (SR): Maximum sanity for anyone is 99 yet most characters will start with less than this. Does this mean a character starts investigator life with less than max sanity?
Q (SR): Maximum sanity for anyone is 99 yet most characters will start with less than this. Does this mean a character starts investigator life with less than max sanity?
Also the investigator can receive psychotherapy and improve their score to the maximum with enough time and money (as long as they don’t have Mythos knowledge).
Is it simply a mechanic assumption that most people naturally operate on a lesser percentage of sanity unless they regularly receive treatment?
A (TA): I personally read it is as mental health and not perfect or not. Some people have stronger mental health, others not as much.
A (MH): Starting SAN = POW = your PC's will power. e.g. 60. Which will be less than your starting Max SAN. e.g. 99. Someone with 99 SAN doesn't panic even when faced with a man with a gun and a dumpster on fire that drops from the sky, they will calmly figure out what to do.
With mental training such as Psychotherapy (and SAN rewards for completing scenarios), you can improve your SAN score above your current SAN up to your current Max SAN which is based on how much Cthulhu Mythos skill you have (99 - Cthulhu Mythos).
Q (CC): What do people do when characters reach their insanity thresholds during player “rewards” if they do badly? Do you ignore it as it’s “between” sessions? Start with a bout of madness next time? or do an insanity summary?
A (MH): I'd have them roll on Bouts of Madness - Summary (p.159 Keeper Rulebook). Have them roll on the table and you can run the affected PCs separately between sessions or do a quick bit of roleplay at the beginning of the next session.
Q: p.155 Keeper Rulebook, Temporary Insanity says only for the result of a Sanity Roll.
Reading tomes and casting spells don't require a Sanity Roll, the SAN loss is automatic. So does this mean you don't need to make a temporary insanity check for reading tomes and casting spells?
A: No. This was corrected in later printings and is part of the errata. Any SAN loss of 5+ from a single source of Sanity loss can cause Temporary Insanity. This includes reading tomes and casting spells.
Q: I have a PC who has a low starting SAN and I want a long character story arc in the campaign I'm playing in. How do I keep him from bottoming out and becoming an NPC too soon?
A: See p.167 Keeper Rulebook. Psychotherapy and Self-help. The PC's backstory entries can be used for Self-help by spending time with significant people, locations, or items. Doing this will add even more story driven elements to the character. Even visits to the Alienist (psychiatrist) can become interesting scenes between chapters in the campaign.
Q (p): Two questions:
Q (p): Two questions:
1. Why would someone join a cult?
2. In some adventures, cultists have 0 SAN, but seem be fully functional members of society. How do you interpret this madness?
A (MH):
1. NPCs generally don't know they've joined a cult until it's too late. It's generally some sort of club, organization, etc. It promises money, power, solving your problems, etc. It might look like the Masons, Moose Lodge, Rotary Club, Key Swapping-Orgy Sex Club, Religious Meetup, Tent Revival, Occult Book Club, etc.. Once the "club" proves they can deliver on their promises, you're in the cult.
The other trope are large families or a town that come from a long line of cultists, the Whateley family or the town of Innsmouth for instance.
2. 0 SAN means that they believe the cult teachings are true. That you can summon gods, ask for favors, cast spells, sacrifice human lives to gain favor, walk through dimensions, etc.. To normal people, you're crazy. Who would believe stuff like that?
Q (GG): Does killing creatures allows one to regain Sanity?
A (MH): TL;DR: No unless you are playing Pulp Cthulhu.
Pre-7e, most scenarios indicated that you would regain SAN if you killed a creature you lost SAN to, showing that you could defeat the unknown, that it's knowable and can be defeated. But looking at 7e rules, p.167 Keeper Rulebook, Increasing Current Sanity Points, it's not part of the rules.
In Pulp Cthulhu p.98 Rewards, it's recommended during the Hero Development Phase at a minimum to reward SAN equal to the toughest creature the PCs defeated. For example if the toughest creature causes 1/1d10 SAN Loss, reward each PC with 1d10 SAN, rolled individually.
So, it looks like this has been removed from CoC 7e and moved into Pulp Cthulhu.
Q (S): What would cause a SAN Loss of 0/1?
Q (S): What would cause a SAN Loss of 0/1?
A (MH): From p.155 Keeper Rulebook, Examples of Sanity Point Costs:
0/1D2 Surprised to find mangled animal carcass.0/1D3 Surprised to find a corpse or body part.0/1D4 See a stream flow with blood.
So, 0/1 should be something less, but disturbing. Such as seeing something momentarily wrong in a mirror or reflection that's not there when you do a double-take. Or a bunch of dead insects in an unexpected place. Or a supernatural feeling of dread for no reason.
Q (TT): There was consistently one point where immersion was broken and that was when someone went into a Bout of Madness in real time. It didn't feel right to take away control from the player, especially because I was struggling at the time to explain why the investigator suddenly acts insane (I mean, it makes sense and all when an author does this for their protagonists - they knows them best after all, but the person who knows the character in a TTRPG best should be the player, right?).
A (MH): I do use the random table for the Bout of Madness, but I don't take over the PC and let the Player play out the madness, it's a lot more fun for the Player that way. The only time I might take the PC over is if they fall into a rage and I tell the Player, you see you're surrounded by enemies, roll an attack against whoever is closest to the PC. In theater of the mind, where we may not know who's closest, the PC with the lowest Luck gets attacked.
Q (TT): Yeah, that makes sense. In that case, how do you convey to your player that the character experiences a bout of madness in story terms (I mean of course you could say "you go insane and experience a bout of madness", but it seems antithetical to the system, where players should describe what they are doing in game and not the mechanics)? Are there some phrases that work well or something, like "experiencing this horrific scene you feel something break deep in your soul"?
A (MH): They're already rolling dice, so it's never 100% immersion.
Table talk would be:
"You see a bunch of human figures gathered around a body. They're in a feeding frenzy, tearing off pieces, you hear the pop of an arm as it comes out of its socket. One of the figures is bent over, gnawing on the face, tearing pieces out. Everyone roll SAN."
"I failed."
"If you succeed lose 0, if you failed lose 1d6 SAN." I have my Players roll their own losses as it it speeds things up vs me having to roll for each PC. I also wait for everyone to roll their SAN checks before telling them the 0/1d6.
"I lost 5 SAN."
"Roll INT. " (Temp Insanity check.)
"I succeeded."
"Bad news, you totally understand what's going on. There are things underground, a society of them that eat the dead. Things buried do not rest in peace. Roll 1d10." (for random Bouts of Madness).
"I got a 5." (Significant Person.)
"Roll another 1d10." (for duration.)
"I got a 4." (4 rounds.)
"Who's your Significant Person?"
"Uncle Bob."
"You gasp (involuntary action). You see Uncle Bob (Bout of Madness), at first you didn't recognize him, but now, it's clear, his face was hidden under the dirt and dried blood, he's chowing down on a human arm. What do you do?"
Then I let the Player play out whatever he wants to do with Uncle Bob for 4 rounds.
A possibility is:
"Do I still see the the others eating the body?"
"Up to you." Sounds like Player is needing some guidance, So I say, "You can hallucinate that it's Thanksgiving dinner and Uncle Bob is offering you a drumstick or you see everything as it is and Uncle Bob is eating a dead body, up to you to decide what you see."
"I think I'll sit down next to Uncle Bob and ask him to pass me the cranberry sauce."
Q (R): My Players created a super-know everything investigators and when I call for a SAN roll they say, "My character saw some scary sh*t and this would not scare them."
A (MH): In Pulp Cthulhu there is the Hardened talent (p.25, Pulp Cthulhu). Otherwise, in CoC there's no such thing. The closest thing is Getting Used to the Awfulness (p.169 Keeper Rulebook).
Otherwise, the Players are trying to game the system and creating a backstory that makes them immune to a core system mechanic. So, I call bullsh*t. Make them roll the SAN check. If they don't lose any points, then yeah, you can say you've seen some sh*t and aren't affected by it; otherwise it did. Also SAN checks aren't all vision based; it can be smell, touch, taste, audio, or even something 6th sense, beyond their normal senses, a vibration, a primal fear that they have no control over.
Q (MSD): On losing 1/5 SAN or more in a game "day," the PC becomes indefinitely insane. What is a game "day?"
Q (MSD): On losing 1/5 SAN or more in a game "day," the PC becomes indefinitely insane. What is a game "day?"
A (MH): Indefinite Insanity, p.156 Keeper Rulebook, explains it right after that statement. As a rule of thumb, I generally say after a PC had a nights rest and upon waking up, the 20% milestone is recalculated. A game "day" is a day inside the game for the PC, not the Player in real-time. If it's a one-shot, a game "day" may last the whole scenario.
Q (BI): Pulp Cthulhu. Resilient talent. There's a disparity between the PC Resilient talent and the NPC Resilient talent description. On page 25, Resilient is described as "May spend Luck points to shrug-off points of Sanity loss, on a one-for-one basis". However, in all other instances where Resilient is described (including in NPC descriptions such as on page 121) it appears as follows: "May spend 10 Luck points to shrug-off up to 5 points of Sanity loss."
Which is correct?
A (MH): I also noticed on p.61, an example of Halving SAN Loss, why spend 45 Luck to reduce SAN loss from 20 to 5, when you can spend 15 Luck to do the same with Resilient? Or was it a bad example?
I got an email response from Mike Mason.
His response:
- PCs with Resilient have a 1-for-1 Luck / SAN loss reduction. No limit. Ignore the example on p.61, Pulp Cthulhu.
- NPCs Resilient is a 2-for-1 Luck / SAN loss reduction. Limit 10-for-5. It is correct as stated.
Q (SPM): If an investigator loses 5 or more Sanity points from one source, they have to make an Intelligence roll, and a failed roll means that they've repressed the horrific memory and don't go temporarily insane. The rules describe this as "test[ing] the investigator's sanity."
Can the player spend Luck points to deliberately fail this INT roll? Or does that fall under the prohibition against using it to alter Sanity rolls?
A (MH): "Luck points may not be spent on Luck rolls, damage rolls, Sanity rolls, or rolls to determine the amount of Sanity points lost." p.99 Keeper Rulebook.
I'd consider it as part of the SAN roll (even though you're talking about the after effects). Also SAN is one of the basic corner stones of the game. I personally would not allow it.
Also logically, if you're not allowed to adjust the amount of SAN pts lost, then you're probably not allowed to adjust the after effects, the temporary insanity kicking in.
Other Q&A:
